of the year. and you can watch it all. join anderson cooper along with celebrities including nicole kidman and carrie underwood for an all-star tribute, this thanksgiving night, 9:00 eastern and pacific. thanks for spending part of your evening with us. i'm erica hill. up next, rick sanchez. up next, rick sanchez. have a great weekend. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com the questions we want answered. did a radical muslim preacher influence a suspected ft. hood shooter? >> also, ayman zawahiri. >> it's an exclusive report you'll see here first, al awlaki and his followers. also, who was the power behind the scenes of the deadly terror rampage in mumbai? we watched in horror nearly a year ago. tonight, something you haven't seen that's absolutely chilling. cell phone videos made by the terrorists themselves during the attacks. you'll hear what these terrorists say. >> you're very close to heaven,

brother, today's the day you'll be remembered for, brother. >> and, tonight, why television will never be the same. >> after much prayer and months of careful thought, i've decided that next season, season 25, will be the last season of "the oprah winfrey show." >> oprah winfrey announces the end of her 25-year run. what's it mean for her media empire, her fans, and what's next? >> i got to shake her hand, yeah! i shook oprah's hand. >> announcer: cnn primetime begins now. in for campbell brown, rick can shez. we've got breaking news tonight. a plea deal in the case of a woman who faced 15 years behind bars after a line cutting incident at a walmart. we're getting details right now. we'll have a live report from outside the courtroom. first, what do you say we do the mash-up? our top story is a numbers game. the number to hit, 60. right now, there is likely serious arm-twisting that's

happening on capitol hill. senate majority leader harry reid is counting every single vote as he battles to bring his $848 billion health care bill to the floor. of course, the senate being the senate, before they vote on this thing, they have to vote on whether to even have a debate and that of course requires a debate of its own. they're still at it, we hear. here's the view from both the left and the right. >> there's so many ways in which this bill in front of us literally will save lives. >> it's about saving lives and saving money, protecting medicare and stopping insurance companies and their abuse. >> we should stop these abuses by health insurance companies. >> if we do not pass this bill, health insurance premiums are going to continue to skyrocket. >> this 2,074-page bill -- >> this 2,0p 4-page bill -- >> this bill would raise taxes.

>> this would be higher health insurance cost, higher taxes, medicare cuts, and then unfortunately more government control over health care decisions. >> it seems like no matter how many times a day we say it, our democratic friends don't hear it. >> this 2,074 page bill -- >> this 2,074-page reid bill. >> it is a big bill. one democratic senator says "enough already." >> talk to people in a truthful way about these stacks of paper. first of all, they're one-sided. so you only have print on one side. with isn't even the way we print them up around here. i've had mine printed up on both sides so i use both sides of the paper. so they've made an attempt here to make it look a lot higher than it is. >> that was tom udal of new mexico. a vote is expected tomorrow night. speaking of health care, for the second time this week, women are hearing mixed messages about

some vital testing. first, it was mammogram confusion. now, new recommendation tonight on pap smears. >> when it comes to the cervical cancer screenings, less is more, but the challenge here, changing, really, a culture. >> i did try actually to tell patients, oh, you don't need to come in every year, i'll see you in two years. they don't like that. it makes them nervous. >> new recommendations from the american college of obstetricians and gynecologists say women can wait until age 21. women 21 to 29 should get screened every 2 years. those 30 and over, every 3 years. previous cervical cancer screening guidelines called for women to start at age 18 or 3 years after becoming sexually active. >> the doctors who came up with this new schedule for pap smears say the recommendations were two years in the making, but releasing them today, bad timing. >> oprah winfrey -- choked up tonight as she announced on her show she's calling it quits in

2011. >> after much prayer and months of careful thought, i've decided that next season, season 25, will be the last season of "the oprah winfrey show." these years with you -- oviewer, have enriched my life beyond all measure. and you all have graciously invited me into your living rooms, into your kitchens, and into your lives. >> the entertainment industry as a whole is wondering what's next, especially after a legacy like this. >> i'm oprah winfrey. and welcome to the very first national "oprah winfrey show"! >> you get a car! you get a car! you get a car! >> i have lost, as of this morning, as of this morning, 67 pounds. this is what 67 pounds of fat looks like. did he ever beat you? >> yes, he did. >> nobody can repay you, but i

wanted to at least try with a few of my favorite things! we've never seen you behave this way before. >> i know. >> have you ever felt this way before? james frey is here. i have to say it is, it is difficult for me to talk to you because i really feel duped. so i think we've come up with the answer to your prayers. this is what i think we're going to do. we are buying you a house! >> now, from her own show to her own network, that's next. what's it going to look like? i'm going to bring you a full report on this in just a couple minutes. sarah palin was on with winfrey this week. it's led to some record book sales. palin has reportedly sold more than 300,000 copies of her book just this week, which may also have been helped by some late-night comics. >> sarah palin is everywhere right now. have you noticed that? this week, sarah palin is going to appear on oprah, "good morning america," "abc world

news," "nightline," sean hannity and "20/20." >> unnamed mccain aides calling you a diva, a whack job. >> let's talk about the interview with katie curic. >> must we? okay. >> what newspapers and magazines did you regular read? >> all of them, any of them. >> she had been prepared specifically on both of those questions? >> yes, especially -- >> so i knew it wasn't a good interview. those are back-assward ways of trying to fix the income. >> that's what i don't like. when you peel back the layers of the palin onion, there's no onion! ♪ don't call it a comeback ♪ i've been here for years >> you know what they're calling you now? evita. ave perone. that's what they're calling you now. >> i think i'm having more fun now though so -- ♪ never left

>> meanwhile, there's good news tonighhe h1n1 virus. the centers for disease control is saying it's on the wane in some parts of the country. some states reporting widespread flu activity though. there's a much higher rate than in the past years. one of its victims, my colleague anderson cooper. here's what he told conan o'brien last night. >> i had a cough that was so bad i thought my heart was going to explode. and we had dr. sanjay gupta who is a cnn medical correspondent -- >> yes, i know. >> i went to him one night desperate. i said, you know, is it possible i have swine flu? and he said no, no, there's no way you have swine flu. the next day, he was hospitalized with swine flu. and -- yeah. so then like a week later, we're back and we're on the air and i'm interviewing him and he says, oh, by the way, i think you had swine flu too. i was like, isn't there like a confidant yalt thing, like you shouldn't announce this on the air? let's get to the important

question. do you have swine flu now! what the hell is this? where's my salad spit guard? yeah, he's coughing, that's great. that's great, anderson. this is terrific. >> okay, don't worry about it. [ applause and laughter ] >> what the hell is that all about! >> and there you have it, the punch line courtesy of conan once again. good night for him. here's his take on how being the leader of the free world tends to age a guy. >> now, in recent interview that just came out, president obama talked about the pressure of his job. he said its starting to take its toll. take a look. >> i'm eating fine and i'm sleeping fine. my hair is getting gray. and it is the butt of a lot of jokes, for my wife, as well as my friends. you have a convergence of factors.

made this -- not so much -- >> and that is "the match-up." tonight, some stories we're following for you. a plea deal in the case of a woman who faced up to 15 years behind bars for an incident that started with her cutting in line at a walmart. we're going to have a live report from outside the courtroom. we're also going to have this surveillance tape you're seeing right there and what happened in court. this exclusive report also on the radical preacher who seemed to have an influence on the suspected ft. hood killer. al awlaki is still getting his message out. even though his website is down and he's in hiding from yemeni authority, dvd box sets of his teachings are still for sale, openly take a prominent place in book stores like this in london,

keeping his radicalizing message alive.

welcome back. i'm rick sanchez. we're following breaking news on that missouri walmart case, a very racially charged case. we're going to be taking you there in a little bit. first tonight, cnn has learned from major nidal hasan's lawyer there will be a hearing tomorrow in his case, likely the first hearing in this case so far. and guess where it's going to take place? in the accused killer's hospital room. the hearing seems to be about where hasan is well enough to be removed from the hospital. we know this -- he is well enough to have coherent conversations with his attorney. meanwhile tonight, there is another clue in to what may have driven hasan to the edge. it's not really about a what,

it's a whom, a muslim preacher, an imam who is two things really. he's very americanized. he's also very radicalized. this is a cnn exclusive you'll see here first. the reporter is nic robertson. >> -- was an opening. >> reporter: anwr al awlaki. >> -- was mercy. >> reporter: the radical yemen-based preacher, seen here online. his followers say he's like osama bin laden. >> he reminds me of bin laden and also zahirry in terms of he's soft-spoken and the same time, the knowledge they have, fo the foundations they have. >> hand me over your scrolls. >> reporter: is the same anwr al awlaki who exchanged e-mails with major hasan, accused of

killing 13 people at ft. hood. after the killings, awlaki praised hasan on his website, calling him a hero. the website is down now. six years ago, he moved from the u.s. to london. abu mawaz was one who flocked to his lectures. >> people loved his classes, the way he explained things. >> reporter: for these radical muslims in london, awlaki was god's messenger. >> he doesn't say fight until there's no more corruption left, allah says that. it's the verse that inspires people, not awlaki. >> reporter: awlaki is still getting his message out. even though his website is down and he's in hiding from yemeni authorities, dvd box sets of his teachings are still for sale, openly taking a prominent place in book stores like this in london. keeping his radicalizing message alive. the newest dvd set released last

month sells out in the open for $100. the store keeper tells me he's doing good business. even more frightening, the people he sells them to think awlaki is mainstream. and this video, with the ominous title "the end of time, a new beginning," shows awlaki inspiring his followers in a 45-minute live internet broadcast to an audience in london. whether he wants it or not, awlaki has inspired people to terrorism. in london, court transcripts reveal that at least some of the group that conspired to blow up passenger jets en route to the u.s. in 2006 were awlaki devotees. so too terrorists in toronto convicted of planning to blow up targets in canada, and in the united states. six men arrested in may 2007 and convicted of planning to kill

soldiers at ft. dixen, new jersey. >> ever since i heard this lecture, brother, i want that. you know why? because it gives it to you raw and unplugged. >> reporter: what you are hearing are three of the ft. dix plotters praising awlaki. why awlaki is so influential is a combination of birth and upbringing. he was born in the united states. his father was a minister in the yemeni government. he is smart and privileged. he preached in imam malik's mosque in virginia. >> young, handsome. california. has the benefit of english without an accent. and who also is proficient in the arabic language. in fact, he is technically an arab. what better mix? >> reporter: he doesn't agree with awlaki's extreme views and

denounces the killings at ft. hood. but it was here at malik's mosque, nidal met. reports that before this he was on the fbi's radar. a cord to the commission, by the time we sought to interview him in 2003, he had left the united states. but what's on everyone's mind now is what influence awlaki may have had on major hasan in those e-mails they exchanged months before the ft. hood shootings. >> so he told them, where are you heading? >> reporter: it is evident the money is pouring in, and the message is getting out. so, where's the money going? and what will awlaki's followers do with the message? nic robertson, cnn, london. >> our guest is an expert on terrorism whose article on

radicalization in the u.s. is about to come out on "newsweek's" website. this imam. it seemed like the more radical he became, as we just saw in that report, he maybe wasn't so radical at one point. but the more radical he became, the more radical hasan became as well. am i wrong? >> well, that may well be the case. it seems they knew each other in virginia when awlaki was a preacher in virginia. since then, awlaki was built up a one-man online jihadi publishing empire. so if hasan wanted to reach out to the guy, it wouldn't be difficult to find. he's got e-mail, youtube videos, a facebook site in which he interacts with people. >> i'm just wondering, is there any doubt in your mind this is the guy who was guiding hasan? and i don't mean directly like they had communication, but somehow it was like his mentor, so to speak. >> that is possible. we just don't know enough yet

about the contents of these e-mail communications. but that is certainly very possible. we've seen a number of cases, nic referred to it in the package, where there are other plots where awlaki has had a big influence on these people. so it's very possible. >> why then -- i got to ask you this question. why then, does a guy who's a major in the army, who's following someone who seemed to be radicalized like this, why isn't that spotted? i would think if i was on the website following this guy, somebody would be calling me, no? >> well, it does seem they discovered he had been contacting awlaki but doesn't seem to have raised the red flags that maybe it should have raised. you know -- >> that seems crazy, by the way. it seems crazy it didn't raise those red flags. i guess, you know what, we'll just leave it there. paul good stuff. i look forward to reading your article. a third straight day on protests on university of california campuses. students are mad as hell over tuition increases. today it turned ugly. you're going to see this one for yourself. also, we've been telling you about this breaking news. just minutes ago there was a

plea deal in an incident at a missouri walmart that started with a woman cutting in a line. how did it get to this then? is she going to jail? is she a victim? does she deserve it? what's going on? we're taking you in the courtroom. >> she looked at me and told me i wasn't anything but a stupid white uneducated walmart employee. and she called betsy an old gray-headed lady, the cashier.

welcome back to cnn. i'm rick sanchez. a group of extremists take it out on a television newsroom. the chaos is caught on camera. and you're going to see it. first, though, more must-see news that's happening right now.

mike galanos is joining us now. >> first, a former state department official and his wife pleaded guilty today to spying for cuba. prosecutors say the couple gave classified national defense information to the cuban government. did it for almost 30 years. mr. myers is going to get life in prison. mrs. myers could get 7 1/2 years. we've been talking about it, angry college students took over a building at the university of california's berkeley campus today. outside, more demonstrators got into shoving matches with police. students fired up on several campuses. they've been protesting this 32% fee hike to make up for slashed state funding. and finally this one, firefighters in jackson, mississippi, had to rescue a 13-year-old boy who got stuck in the chip gchimney. first they tried cooking oil. i think cisco. then back to basics. they went with a sledgehammer -- >> i would have gone with a sledgehammer right away. >> i think they tried to save the house first. why was he in the chimney?

leave it to brother. brother threw his book bag in the chimney. >> not a good move for either of them. if you're oprah winfrey, here's the question we're going to look being into tonight, what do you do next? ever worn your clothes in the shower? if you're using other moisturizing body washes, you might as well be. you see, their moisturizer sits on top of skin, almost as if you're wearing it. only new dove deep moisture has nutriummoisture, a breakthrough formula with natural moisturizers... that can nourish deep down. it's the most effective natural nourishment ever. new dove deep moisture with nutriummoisture. superior natural nourishment for your skin.

by changing her medicare prescription plan. all we had to do was go to cvs.com and use the free savings calculator. we learned that changing your medicare part d plan could save an average of $612. woman: we just entered my prescriptions, and it compared plans for us. it was easy to find the right plan for the prescriptions i need. your cvs pharmacist can help, too. come in today, or go to cvs.com before december 31st to find the best plan for you -- at cvs/pharmacy.

look at this chaos in a television newsroom today. this happened in mumbai india, where extreme right wing activists are furious at the media. i mean, look, these are people who are against christians or any other religion besides hindu in there country. what they did, by the way, was

caught on tape. while dramatic, what happened in that newsroom is nothing compared to the carnage nearly a year ago in that same city when ten young pakistani men walked into a hotel and unleashed several nights of hell. it was a slaughter. now, a new hbo documentary hosted by our own fareed zach karr shows what happened on the inside. it's called "terror in india." tonight's "breakout." >> the first pair of gunmen made for one of mumbai's best-known bars. they left behind a bomb in their taxi, set to explode in an hour's time. >> they came from a taxi. they were talking on the phone for a long time. >> thinking they were foreigners. i asked, want a t-shirt?

[ speaking foreign language ] >> a grenade ripped through the bar. the gunmen emptied their automatic weapons. then reloaded to finish off the people who couldn't run away. as scores of people were being gunned down at the railway station, another pair of clean-cut pakistani boys in their early 20s blasted through the entrance of one of mumbai's top five-star hotels, the try

dent oberoi. the lead gunman was fahadulla, who wore black. >> fahadulla and his accomplice killed nine staff and three guests in the lobby. [ gunshots ] >> finally, the taj hotel, mumbai's most iconic landmark, was ablaze. brother wasi and his fellow

controllers were watching the action live on international tv channels. it was an image brother wasi knew would travel round the world. >> that's terror in mumbai. it's now airing on hbo. there is breaking news tonight in the case of a woman charged with attack police officers after cutting in line at a walmart. there is the video that we've been getting on this story. a plea deal has just been made while the jury was deciding her fate, interestingly enough. we're going to be going live to the courthouse, where two of our correspondents are following this developing story. meanwhile, oprah winfrey gives her two-year notice. but already everyone wants to know what's next and how is it

going to work with her own network. some lunch.

you hungry? yeah. me too. (door crashes in) (broadview alarm) (gasp and scream) go! go! go! go! go! go! (phone rings) hello? this is mark with broadview security. is everything okay? no. someone just tried to break in. i'm sending help right now. thank you.

(announcer) brink's home security is now broadview security. call now to install the standard system for just $99. the proven technology of a broadview security system delivers rapid response from highly trained professionals, 24 hours a day. call now to get the $99 installation, plus a second keypad installed free. and, you could save up to 20% on your homeowner's insurance. call now - and get the system installed for just $99. broadview security for your home or bususess - the next generation of brink's home security. call now. welcome back. i'm rick sanchez. in the past hour, we got word of a last-minute plea deal in the case of a woman who cut in line at a walmart. she had been charged with attacking police officers and then the case took on racial overtones on both sides with the naacp showing up for rallies, as well as some on the other side,

counterdemonstrating, holding banners with swastikas and the rebel flag. it got ugly. in just a minute, we're going to be going to david maddingly at the courthouse to get the details on this sudden plea deal. but first, here's cnn's gary tuchman who shows us how this case really unfolded. >> reporter: the person highlighted is a 21-year-old woman. prosecutors say she is kicking a police officer. one of two cops they say she assaulted. three years later, heather ellis, an african-american, the cop she's accused of hitting and kicking are white. her supporters say she was actually assaulted by the cops. video shows her hand moving another customer's items back on the conveyer belt four times. witnesses testified she was cutting in line and was profane and rude. >> she told me i wasn't anything but a stupid white uneducated walmart employee. and she called betsy an old gray-headed lady, the cashier. >> reporter: five police officers were involved in the arrest.

one of them was albert fisher who testified she told me i was a stupid mother-blanker. he added, she let me know i didn't know who i was blanking with. when asked her name, she said, my name is donald blanking duck. he claims he was kicked many times. heather's defense attorney is fighting back. jurors now know prosecution witnesses had pretrial meetings with the prosecutor. ellis' defense attorney hinted they could have matched their stories. he says left out many of the key moments -- >> all right, that's gary tuchman. our david mattingly's joining me now. he's at the courthouse in missouri. our cnn legal analyst lisa bloom is going to be joining me and she's going to be filling us in on some of the legal perspectives here. this thing came out of the blue, didn't it, david? >> it sort of did, rick. we weren't expecting to see it happen the way it did. the jury had this case.

they were back there deliberating. the judge called everyone back in and said we have a plea deal. heather ellis has to plead guilty to disturbing the peace and resisting arrest. the penalty is, she has to serve one year unsupervised probation. spend four days in county jail over the next year. and then she has to go through an anger management program of not less than two hours, plus pay for court costs. now, she seemed to be happy -- we, her attorney said they were sort of -- felt that was appropriate. the prosecutor said that this was appropriate for someone for a first-time offense. i spoke to heather about it. >> i didn't break line. she actually broke in front of us. we also found out that i was shoved first by the theresa kinder. we also found out i didn't yell or curse. i was speaking in a loud tone, as i do always, and i thought that it was -- i actually still

think it's important that my story got out, that people understood the truth and heard it. and if i would have signed a plea bargain or anything before, i wouldn't have had an opportunity to let the world now know and let the jurors know what actually happened. >> all right, that's david mattingly. i want to bring in lisa bloom. i got to tell you, when i first started following this case, it looked like she really was the victim in the case. after hearing some of that testimony in court you start to wonder if she may not have, in many ways, exacerbated the situation herself. that's not to say she's the only one who did amp this thing up. but she may have played a part, right? >> you know, rick, 9 out of 10 cases end in a plea bargain. most criminal cases don't go to trial. it's very unusual for a plea bargain to take place after the case has gone to the jury and before they reach a verdict. to me, that's a recognition that there are problems on both sides of the case. heater ellis, for all of hr tough talk and all of her attorney's tough talk, had to realize there were too many witnesses against her.

and there was probably going to be a guilty verdict against her on some of these counts. by pleading guilty to two misdemeanor and getting a relatively light sentence, she was probably beating the odds against her. the prosecution had to recognize this case was overcharged. this is a case that began with a woman who was angry at walmart. being angry at walmart is not a crime. being angry while black at walmart sounds like it is a crime to some people in missouri who see this as a racially motivated prosecution. when everything settles in this case, it looks to me like there were some good issues on both sides of this case. heather ellis made some mistakes, but it was overcharged and it all boils down to a couple misdemeanors. keep in mind, heather ellis was in legal jeopardy for almost three years for what started out as a very minor offense. >> yeah, and it's not every day you see some line cutting turn into something involving potential charges of 15 years. again, i go back to what we learned in testimony today. stuff that we had not heard before.

that does not make her out to be a total victim in this case. >> right. >> police officers are supposed to be obeyed. and when you use that kind of language with police officers, you know, you're bringing it on yourself, aren't you? >> well, rick, i'm going to disagree with you a little bit on that. she was not in custody. when a police officer told her to calm down. she is not required to follow anything a police officer says to her when she is not in custody. it is not a crime to be angry and walking away from walmart and even uttering profanities. and the police officer may have been aggrieved by the fact she didn't calm down upon his order. but she's an american citizen and she's not required to do that because she was not in custody. >> i get what you're saying. my brother's a cop. i get it. it takes two to tango in offices like this. the officer needs to deescalate situations -- >> exactly. >> not amp them up. you have to understand as well -- i guess that's the point i'm coming from this wasn't like the police officer came in there to a person who was being very quiet and cooperative, and suddenly started hitting them or

doing something offensive to them -- >> okay, but rick, just quickly, a week from today is black friday. there's going to be a lot of people pushing and shoving in line. are they going to be facing 15 years in prison? are five cops going to be called for each of them? this case was overcharged from the beginning. i think this plea deal was a good resolution. >> overcharged through external forces as well from some of the protests we saw after incident my thanks to you. appreciate it. oprah winfrey says 25 years of asking questions on daytime tv is enough. there is one question we have about her -- what's next? i have asthma. and when my symptoms-the coughing, wheezing, tightness in my chest came back- i knew i had to see my doctor. he told me i had choices in controller medicines. we chose symbicort. symbicort starts to improve my lung function within 15 minutes. that's important to me because i know the two medicines in symbicort are beginning to treat my symptoms and helping me take control of my asthma. and that makes symbicort a good choice for me. symbicort will not replace a rescue inhaler

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welcome back. i'm rick sanchez. oprah winfrey calls it quit and gets emotional about it. here it is. >> over this holiday break, my team and i will be brain-storming new ways that we can entertain you and inform you and uplift you when we return here in january. and then season 25. we are going to knock your socks off. so the countdown to the end of "the oprah winfrey show" starts now. >> it's interesting. the countdown for the show may

have started, but the brand is not going anywhere. in fact, let me share some numbers. this is her empire, okay? her show has 7 million daily viewers. "o" magazine has a circulation of 2.3 million. harpo produces the "dr. phil" and "dr. oz" shows among others. it also produces movies like "precious" and "beloved." has an annual revenue of $345 million. oprah winfrey, is she just getting started? this is a media analyst, also entertainment and corporate pr strategist marit breto from miami. glad you're both here. why not continue to do the show and also have a network and also continue to have a bunch of smart people running this stuff for her? >> first, it's really great to be oprah because you can do anything you want which is rare in this industry. she's done doing a daily show.

i don't think people understand what it really takes to be totally engaged, totally involved, totally consumed with the show. she goes -- by the way this is a heck of a ride, the two years we're going to be saying good-bye to her, right? it's like a baseball retiring years from now. >> back to the question, why can't she continue to do her show and do all that other stuff? >> she could. she would rather have the flexibility of going to the oprah winfrey net are joining discovery, they own it together, she'll go on the air when she wants to go on the air. >> she wants to be a manager, not a talent in other words. >> she may want to be a manager. the reality is, that thing is not going to work without oprah -- the middle of the doughnut. she's got to be on the air more than i think she thinks she needs to be on the air, but not every day like she is now. more than what she's planning to do. who wants to pay to see oprah the manager? it's oprah the star. >> the manager is what we're going to be look at next. what are you hearing about this network and what are you hearing about the plans for what we'll see in the next couple years?

what is it going to look like? >> i'm hearing people are excited about the next evolution of oprah. we're excited to see what she'll do next. we've seen for 25 years that she's been a pioneer and a visionary as it relates to daytime television. now we want to see how oprah will take her equity, the brand equity she's mastfully built over the last 25 years, and bring it to her own network. >> what america needs is another network, right? just like it needs a hole -- >> absolutely. >> just like we need a hole in our head. last time i checked, there's like 600, 700 channels on my dvr. >> it is a slap in the face on some level, whether oprah intended it or not, for broadcast network television. she's saying i'm going to cast my lot with cable. i'm going to go this way. because frankly it is a better place for her. people are saying, how could you give up a network gig every day? oprah figured out more flexibility, more control. she can make and break other people. i'll tell you what, i don't think she wants to work as hard. >> what happens to that -- look,

i got to tell you, i used to be a local anchor. the biggest thing about oprah was she made television news in the local markets. if you got her as your lead-in, you were going to win. i don't care if you were cbs, abc, nbc, no matter who you were, someone's going to have to fill that void. is she going to pick that person? >> i don't think she's going to pick that person. think oprah's concerned with oprah. oprah has launched the shows that she wanted to launch, with dr. phil and oz, you know, individuals who came on her show, and showed tremendous pedigree and had something to offer. oprah's not concerned with the fact that the cable networks, that there are a ton of them. there were a lot of daytime talk shows but none survived and thrived the way oprah did. she'll take her vision and take it to cable and she'll be wildly successful because she's got equity that very few have seen in television. >> they want us to close this out. go ahead, steve. >> local news program,

particularly the abc folks, most of the places across the country, they're in trouble because there is no other oprah and she has pumped up those numbers artificially. they're going to find out what it's like to be carrying their own weight. >> they're going to take a hit. >> absolutely. >> they're going to take a big hit. >> great conversation, appreciate it. we're just minutes away from "larry king live." tonight's intriguing person, the journalist who broke the story of the heartbreaking scandal, thousands of babies born with terrible birth defects after their mothers unknowingly, unknowingly, key word there, took a dangerous drug.

welcome back. tonight's intriguing person is a legendary newsman, sir herald evans, took on the british government nearly 40 years ago to show the world the

devastating effects on children from a pill their mothers took to avoid morning sickness. it's called thilimaid. kids born with deformed arms and legs, even brain damage. this week, all these years later, the government announced it will offer cash settlements to the victims after approving the drug for use. it's just one of the stories that sir herald evans tells in his new book, "my paper chase, true stories of vanished times." he recently sat down with campbell. >> you have lived this incredible life. >> still going on. >> still going on. "sunday times" publisher, random house, bunch of impressive titles. talk to me about what has been the most -- what has been and maybe is the most rewarding time in your career. >> i think trying to get some kind of justice for the children who were born without arms and legs. >> tell people the story because i was going to ask you about this, but i figured it would be. >> what happened is their

mothers when pregnant were given a pill press described on the national health service buy three doctors -- >> it was supposed to be a pill for morning sickness. >> right. and all the pregnancies, when they took it at a certain period, ended with the mothers giving birth to children without legs, arms and sometimes with massive internal injuries. >> just horrible birth defects. >> and the mothers were so shocked. and then they had the prospect -- i mean, one particular case, the mother brought her lovely child home, even though no legs, no arms, and the husband said, either that monster goes or i go. so he went. and so the trouble was the government would not acknowledge its responsibility. it would not have an inquiry. the parents were left to sue. the drug company would not give them any decent money. there they were, abandoned year one, abandoned year two, abandoned year three. in the meantime, the entire british press, broadcasting,

newspapers, were told, in no account can you talk or inquire about this story while it's of about the courts. because the penalty for that is to go to prison. so i started a series, "our thilimaid children." big photographs of the kids. i said, pay up, compensate them. >> this is a huge scandal at the time. >> major scandal. even today, when i went to britain quite recently, i met them. they've grown up. they came to where i spoke. very, very touching. one of them said to me, "you're our hiero." i said no, never say that again, the heros are your parents who brought you up and the heroes today are you. >> i mean, is writing this book and being out here publicly talking about the book now, i mean it must have brought all this back for you in such a powerful way. >> okay.

well, overcame it in the end. we won. we won the money for them. >> again, it is such a powerful testament to, i think, what great journalists can accomplish. >> exactly right. if you don't have newspapers, which we're prepared to do that, you will get just an increase in injustice. >> so what do you see as the answer to this challenge? because clearly, you know, newspapers are in real trouble. and not just newspapers, journalism more generally is in real trouble. >> well, i think it's a terrible mistake when very large corporations, first of all, don't put something away for a rainy day. and just exploit -- profits. i think we are -- possibility of getting a golden age of journalism because the web which enable you to get original documents easily, she's a marvelous facility, all the

capacities for research enables journalism to be done more effecti effectively. but they have to be financed. >> you really think the best is still ahead? you're the only one who thinks that, by the way. >> i carry a health warning -- beware, this man is an eternal optimist. >> that was a good interview, wasn't it? sir harold evans with campbell brown. "larry king live" starts in just a couple minutes. his special guests, the finalists from "dancing with the stars." up next, tonight's guilty pleasure. the video we just cannot resist. if you're taking 8 extra-strength tylenol... a day on the days that you have arthritis pain, you could end up taking 4 times the number... of pills compared to aleve. choose aleve and you could start taking fewer pills. just 2 aleve have the strength... to relieve arthritis pain all day.

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"larry king live" is on deck. first, tonight's "guilty pleasure." i love breaking down formations. i love the wildcat. i understand you've got something a little weird for us tonight. >> yeah, we call this the bouquet toss. you know, the wedding, the bouquet toss, that's what we have here. fake the pitch. no look over the head, touchdown. this is bethel college. it's ingenious. write that one down, coach. >> let's see. pro right with a slot going. he's going in motion. let's see that again. the quarterback takes the ball. >> one motion. >> throws it over his head. wait a minute, that's a stupid play. let me tell you -- >> come on, it worked. >> let me tell you